A Million Miles Away on the Deerfield River with Brian Comfort

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This week on the destination angler…

it's a beautiful scenic, you know remote river where you can get you know, you can get a stretch of river yourself even in the busy season if you're willing to walk a little bit. And you know there's always a chance of getting a 27 inch brown trout and I just don't know, too many places where you can do that in the Northeast.

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That was Brian comfort on the Deerfield River. Welcome to the destination angler Podcast, the podcast for anglers who travel, and I'm your host Steve Haigh. We go right to the source, the local guides and experts to build your knowledge of top fishing locations around North America. It's a big world out there now go and fishing.

Up next on the destination angler we hit the little Juniata River in Central PA with none other than competition angler extraordinaire Josh Miller, and be sure to backcast to catch the last episode of the destination angler parts one and two of the Blackfoot River with John McClane. In case you missed it John is the son of Norman Maclean, who wrote A River Runs Through It and shares the fascinating inside story of the book The movie in his family.

Today our destination is to Deerfield River in Western Massachusetts. And our guest is Brian comfort of the Deerfield fly shop.  The Deerfield ranks is among the best tailwaters in the Northeast. With diverse hatches and water types anglers can find great dry fly fishing and escape the crowds on this remote and scenic river. Our guest Brian is one fishy dude having spent his early years in Wyoming and Colorado where he guided and work retail and restaurant jobs to fish as much as possible. Later, he moved back to East entering a Ph. D program but instead of studying, you guessed it, he pretty much fly fished and worked in the shop. Lucky for us Brian is now the proud owner of the Deerfield fly shop. Today Brian shares what makes the Deerfield river so special, how to navigate those multiple dams and tailwaters that make up this system, the major hatches and how to target those big Browns lurking in nearly every hole. As a bonus. Brian shares his experiences with tarpan in the Virgin Islands, giant trout in New Zealand and the ever technical swift River in Massachusetts. Plus, was it a good idea to buy a fly shop during COVID? Let's find out from Brian All right, well, welcome to the show, Brian.

03:22

Thanks for having me favorites. It's a real pleasure to be here. Yeah,

03:25

I was you know, we were talking about your intro, you know, and that you've been fishing all over the place. And I'm super interested. Tell me about the Virgin Islands. We've not talked anybody yet who's been at Virgin Islands fishing will be efficient for down there and how was it?

03:38

Well, actually, I went down there just on a vacation to actually go sailing. And, but I knew you know, I did a little research and it's not really well known for, for its fishing down there. At least not for fly fishing. But I did find out that on Tortola. There's some Bonefish flats. And then I also found out that, um, there are resident tarpan there in the 100 to 200 pound range. Really that yeah, that kind of sparked my interest. So I bought some rods down with me. Yeah, and it was pretty neat. And you know, as I said I was sailing down there so it wasn't really focused on fishing. But I did go out with a guide for Bonefish we didn't really get into any I spent you know that half day just picking his brain on where I can fish on my own, you know, for the couple of you know, chunks of time I had free time I had and so and I had a little boat, kind of a dinghy, you know from the sailboat I was on and I could go after sailing and kind of just cruise around the harbor and look for him and one evening I just I happened to be rolling along. I'd never fished for tarpon before didn't really know what to expect. You know I had a 10 Wait rod but um, you know did not have the proper terminal tackle on there by any stretch. But I ran into these tarpan that were just rolling on baitfish right there.

04:56

Oh my gosh. Yeah,

04:58

And you know, and within seconds I'm hooked up to this, you know, 6070 pounds.

05:05

Oh my gosh

05:08

yeah. And and I gotta you know, I know skywalk out of it, my heart is in my throat, and, you know, things to hell slapped and then I got another one and he spit the fly. And, you know, took me a while to stop shaking after that. But not too long because I took you know, they were still rolling on bait so I threw it back in there and sure enough hooked into another one about the same size. You know, I got a tail walk out of it. And then Then he broke me off because I didn't I didn't have a good bite later on there. So as soon as that second carbon head he took the fire right off, but really, but those two fish yeah, they ended up yeah, they ended up costing me a lot of money because they gave me that that, you know, tropical saltwater bug and go down there and find them again.

05:52

Have you been back to the Virgin Islands since then?

05:55

Not the Virgin Islands, though, I would like to, I would definitely like to. I've been to Belize a few times. Okay. And, but ya know, one of these days, I'll get back down there. And hopefully run into those tarping. Again, a little bit better prepared.

06:09

You sound like the old man in the sea. You know, that book by anyway, you know, Santiago, right? With a little dinky.

06:16

No doubt, you know, and I thought about it, you know, kind of even as the fish was, I was like, I don't even know what to do with this thing. Once I catch it. It's just gonna capsize the digging. But it was a problem I was willing to deal with.

06:30

Right? Yeah, that's a good problem to have. Well, what about New Zealand? I was New Zealand.

06:35

New Zealand was great. Yeah, again, that was another thing. I wasn't there to fish. But obviously, I knew of New Zealand. So I bought my gear with me and I was there on a family vacation. And, and, you know, it's everything they say it is it's the rivers are just unbelievably beautiful. You know, the, in the, the MO down there as if you see another car on the spot, you know, you drive another couple miles. And you know, and it's just, it's very, you know, very wild, you know, you got the river to yourself, usually. And, you know, even in some of these small creeks, they're, you know, five, six pound brown trout and rainbow trout. And it was just Yeah, it was just spectacular. I only got the fish a few days. But you know, it was it was unbelievable, an unbelievable few days. So

07:19

wow, did you tangle with some nice trout? Yeah, absolutely.

07:23

Yeah. Yeah. Especially in the North Island, I got into some of these really small streams, you know, they were probably, I don't know, 30 feet across, maybe. But you know, but loaded with 5-6-7 pound trout. And it was just, you know, it took me a while, you know, I hoped one and I just didn't know what to do. They just take off, you know, because there's no water and so they just go around. And so, the first few I popped, but then I finally realized, you know, kind of how to play him a little bit and, and got a few to him. So yeah, but just such a cool experience. You know, there's just these really wild where he fish and big, you know, just so big. And you can see him the water is crystal clear. And it's just, yeah, it was unreal.

08:09

Wow, that sounds cool. I did a show in New Zealand. It's actually one of my top shows, you know, North America, but we did a show in New Zealand. And the guy's talking about hey, if you can be 20 pound brown trout, you know?

08:22

Yeah, yeah. Now there's some monsters. And it's just so beautiful down there. And just, you know, just not that many people. It's awesome.

08:31

There you go. All right. So that made you crazy for Saltwater in New Zealand in the hair er, in Massachusetts. So let's, let's talk about Massachusetts, because you've done a lot of fishing around the state. What's it? What's the fishing, like, just kind of around the state?

08:45

Math is great. You know, um, you know, it's funny, you know, I did, I lived out west and that's kind of for a few years for years, you know, right after college, and that's where I really cut my teeth fly fishing, and, you know, just you think of the West is smelly and a trout and is beautiful. And, you know, and you know, and then I moved back home back east and I was like, Oh, this is you know, somehow diminished, right? Because it's not, it's not the West but, but moving back here realized that there's, you know, there's just some fantastic fishing in the northeast, you know, you got to find it, you got to seek it out. Although it's getting better and better known. You know, this was kind of before they did social media that I'm talking about. But um, yeah, Massachusetts, what I love about Massachusetts, you know, even even, you know, kinda that sets it apart from the west is that there's some great trout fishing, but there's, you know, great smallmouth bass, large mouth, bass carp pike. And then you go to the coast, you know, and he got a totally different kind of fishing with striped bass and false albacore and bonito and blue fish and it's just the diversity of fishing ears is really fantastic. All within a you know, a couple hours in either direction.

09:50

Yes. Cool. Are you catching stripers off the shore? Are you having to get a boat to get out and get after those guys?

09:57

I'm both Yeah, you certainly you don't have to have a boat. You can absolutely catch them from shore. And that's really fun. You know, it's, it's harder, and certainly easier with a book, you know, because you can, you can cover more ground and, you know, sort of find where the fish are and go to them rather than, you know, because they're not always in the same spots. So when you're fishing from shore, you know, you, I mean, there's spots where there will always be Schoolies, or smaller fish and, and those, you know, are generally will always be at certain times, and, you know, and so that's, that's, that's a fun game to play. But to look for the big fish, you know, it can be hard, but they do come in close, so you can get them. And it's cool, you know, in some ways more rewarding from shore, because you know, because it's a little bit harder.

10:39

Yeah, right. And what about the trout streams in Massachusetts? Can you name a few of the more well known ones or popular ones?

10:46

Yeah, so um, so the two, I'd say the two best known streams, and probably most popular ones are the Swift river. And the Deerfield River, the Swift river is is kind of, you know, your true classic tailwater it comes out of the Quabbin reservoir, which is this really deep reservoir that gives a lot of drinking water to the Boston area. So that water comes out of the bottom of that, it you know, it never gets above the high 50s. Even in the dead of summer, you know, and it doesn't, you know, and then again, in the winter, it's, you know, never gets, you know, much colder than 35 or so. So it's, you know, it's one of those classic tailwaters that you hear about, and it's also a little closer to Boston. So it gets, you know, it gets quite a bit more pressure to and there's about, you know, you know, most people fish about a three to four mile stretch of it, there's probably another three to four miles, that you can fish pretty easily as well. And then there's the Deerfield, which is kind of, you know, I considered our home river. It's also a tailwater, there are a number of dams on that river. But it is, instead of the, you know, the drinking water reservoir, it's, it's a power generation dams, all the dams are for power generation. So the mentality behind those things are kind of very different. So in the drinking water reservoir, they don't want to ever released water, you know, they just want to sell that water to Boston, they don't want to put it in Swift river. So there's a minimum flow that goes there. And it keeps that river very consistent. And, you know, except in the most extreme circumstances, that river stays at that same level that, you know, makes it very easy to fish, very consistent. And that's why it's, you know, it's a really good trout fishery, because, you know, it's a very consistent river that's, you know, keeps that water on that, and that Trump's happy range. Most of the time, with the power generation dams, you know, they kind of want to crank it through when they want to make when they want to make energy, and they want to shut it off when they're not making energy, right. And it just, it leads to you know, so the management is quite different and so on the Deerfield will go from, you know, on the upper river will go from a minimum flow of 125 CFS, to you know, just a typical release will be between, you know, 700 and 1000. CFS. So, you know, drastic increase, yeah. And that can happen, you know, that can happen every day, you know, for three or four hours. You know, sometimes they'll keep it on longer. Sometimes they'll you know, they won't release, but it's more volatile, I guess. Okay. That's the best way to put that.

13:20

Do they publish schedules? Are you going to know that a three o'clock or noon?

13:24

Yeah, they do. But they don't, I don't think that there's like, they're not required to strictly stick by them. So you always have to be a little bit wary that they may deviate from that schedule. Yeah. Which, you know, when you're talking about the change from 125, to 100, that's already in river. Yeah, you gotta get out of the water. Or at least on the side of the river, where your car is, or else it's gonna be a long walk up that other side is a

13:51

good point. Oh, my gosh, have you? Have you been out there and all sudden, the rocks are disappeared, and you go crowd, I gotta get out of the river?

13:58

Oh, absolutely. All the time. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, you know, because, and I've gotten, you know, someone told me this a long time ago, and it was great advisors, you know, look at the rocks near you, especially when you're kind of, you know, it's going to change them. You know, look at the rock, you know, pick a rock near you. And just and just mark the level on it and just check it every couple minutes. Right. But what I noticed up there is what happens is that you actually hear it before you really see it, like all of a sudden, you know, you're cast into a fish or something else. And it's like, you just kind of like, wait a minute, everything just got a little bit louder. And then I'll look at my rock. And sure enough, that water's rising on that rock. Yeah. So yeah, there have been times where I'm like, on the other side of the river or some like, you know, trying to run across the river to get off in time. Oh, I floated down. Yeah, I floated down the river once. And there was a guy who was caught on the wrong side, and he's like, you know, what do I do? How do I get out of here? And I told him was like, Listen, you gotta, you gotta hike all the way back up to that bridge up there. And, you know, and he didn't he actually tried to cross it and, you know, ended up you know, he ended up making it to the other side. But he didn't have. He couldn't. Yeah, he was slamming he lost his rod he lost, you know, you know, probably his fly boxes and everything. So it's,

15:12

you gotta watch it.

15:14

You do? Yeah, yeah, you do for sure.

15:17

I had a guy told me once said that his trip to Washington rocks as we put a $5 bill on a rock, if he knows, you know, something's coming, and then you will not forget to look at those rocks, because you don't want to lose your five bucks. Sounds like a little bit much for me. But I've noticed I've had that happen in Oh, on the North Fork in the white. I remember fishing and we had a nice hash going on. And you know, you didn't when that happens, you're totally focused on the hash. And then also, the fish just stopped. Just bow just stopped and I looked around. And that's when I realized, you know, the rocks are disappearing. And within five minutes, it was raging, you know, like we got out of there. We didn't run but we got out of there. And it just, I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, but it was coming down pretty good.

16:02

Yeah, they pump some water through there, so they do.

16:07

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18:29

Yeah, no, it is. And you know, and a lot of people do they get they get sort of scared away by the change in flows. And it's kind of a shame because because it is such a great river. You know, there's, it's, it's beautiful. First off, you know, I mean, from top to bottom. It's a very rural river. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's up in the mountains. And it's upper sections and then it goes through a kind of a high valley and then it goes down through another sort of set of hills and then it comes out into the farmland in the plane of the Connecticut you know, before it dumps out into the Connecticut River. And it's just in almost all of its Yeah, I mean, it goes through one. It's not a city at a town called Chagrin Falls of you know, maybe a few 1000 people and that's you know, that's the urban stretch of the river they're you know, they're there. But yeah, so I mean so first off it's just I mean that's what God did, you know for me initially just coming up here you know, when I first moved to this areas, you know, that just go out there and just everywhere it's just beautiful you know, it's there's you know, a sea bear up there you see deer you know, more and more these days are seeing you know, tons of birds of prey Eagle Osprey and it's just yeah, it's just it's then you feel like you know, you feel like you're a million miles away. And you know, and as I got to know the river I started find out that you know, there's you know, they stock some really nice fish in there. The Math Department of Fish and Wildlife does but, but what they're true, you know, beauty of the river is the wild fish in there. And we really found over these past, you know, 1015 years that, that it's a very healthy wild trout fishery both with brown trout and rainbow trout. Okay, yeah, so there's, you know, and there are some big big brown trout in there. They're not easy to catch, and you got to put your time and but they're in there. So you know, they're there. Yeah, that's fun. And those fish are generally wild. So the quality of fish there may not be, you know, the numbers of fish, you know, the great you know, the great western rivers and stuff, you know, nowhere near that many fish per mile, or even some of the, you know, the more well known rivers in the northeast, but but their fish in there and you know, quite a few of them and some really, really high quality, you know, large wild fish. Yeah,

20:49

I can ask you what's your personal best?

20:51

My personal best and that sort of the main stem of the Deerfield as little as 24 inch Brown? Oh, nice. Yeah. And that was that was that was I caught that on the fall? Many years ago. But yeah, just, I was climbing up on these rocks, and then all sudden, I spotted and I was going through, there's one rapid on the river on the upper river. I shouldn't give too much detail away here. But there's one wrap up forever. At high water, low water, it's water still going through. They're pretty good. But you can kind of climb up the rocks along it and just in there, some big boulders in there, too, you know, like, you know, 10 feet high or something. And so it's climbing on top of this one, just sort of working my way up, and just saw this huge fish in there. And sure enough, I was able to get it to eat my emphasis. I drifted it by.

21:39

Okay, and what were you using? Remember? Yeah, so

21:42

he's using an egg. Oh, yeah. Okay, so, yeah, so they eat they eat a lot of eggs, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm pretty small and to you know, like a size 16. So

21:55

what was the fight like?

21:57

It was guy was fantastic. And I think just to just tour offline and when cruising across, and yeah, it was it was good fun. Oh, really? Jeff to chase him? Not so much. No, no, I was I was kind of I had a, you know, kind of a five week switch rods. So I had a pretty heavy duty route. Yeah, nice job. Yeah, it was fun. And there, but I have to say that there are much bigger fish that are taken out. I just haven't had the good fortune to get get into anything even better. But I'm pretty happy with what I did get up.

22:27

Yeah. Sounds pretty nice to have. Yes. Phenomenal. Tell us where the Deerfield River and it's in Western Mass, but give people a sense, where does it start? Where does it flow? That kind of thing?

22:37

Yeah, so it actually starts in Southern Vermont, sort of South Central Vermont. And, and there, it starts in kind of the, you know, the green mountains up there. And it's a pretty small stream there, there are a couple of really big reservoirs up there. There's, there's a few different branches that come together, in kind of, you know, a lot closer down towards the mass border. But it's still even into the end of the mass border, it's a relatively small river, you know, and then there's another reservoir, right, and that sort of mass from our border. And then there's a couple stretches, and you know, the part that's fished the most for trout, or that we concentrate on the most are there plenty of people who fish it up in Vermont, is the stretch in Massachusetts under what's called Five Brook dam. Okay, which is the second or third dam in Massachusetts, there are so many unless it's hard to keep track of, but that's kind of where, like, you know, that's where the best you know, or the, you know, the kind of the the easiest access most, you know, really good trout fishing happens in Massachusetts. And, and so that's all, you know, that's all up in the mountains. So it's a fairly steep gradient up there, you know, marked, you know, broken up by those two dams. But once it hits five, there's a great stretch of, I don't know, probably 11 miles, 12 miles before the next dam. And so it flows out of the mountains into kind of a higher Valley. So it kind of for about six miles. It put you know, it's a fairly steep gradient, a lot of pocket water runs, you know, pools, classic trout water, and then it gets into this kind of high valley up there on the town of Charlemagne. And it flattens out a little bit and widens a little there. Couple tributaries come in and make it a little bit bigger. Nice. Yeah, and flows down to pass the town of Charlemagne and to this to another dam, and then it goes through a series of dams. That's where that kind of Shelburne falls as it goes through a series of dams in there. And then the last dam is is is sort of is just down a few miles downstream of Shelburne falls, and then from there to the Connecticut is is probably 15 miles or so. Where it's also not dammed and so there's, you know, there's trout fishing throughout, though it's more seasonal. Once you get below Shelburne falls, you know, kind of the summer it gets a little too warm. Okay. And that's the other thing I love about the Connecticut car about that Deerfield river is that, that lower stretch is, is really diverse and it's loaded with smallies you know, the higher up it's kind of a lot of smaller smallest as you get down towards the Connecticut, there's some really, you know, beautiful big, you know, trophy sized small mouth, particularly in the spring I think a lot of fish come up out of the Connecticut to spawn so we'd like to target a target that pre spawn on the lower river and has gotten some real quality fish you know, like five or six pounds mom out. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, really nice fish. And then but you can also get you can get pike down there, you can get carp down there. There's a shad run in the spring as well which is a lot of fun. Yeah, it's just it's just a neat diverse River and and a lot of it you know, and part of that lower river is some of the hardest to access. So it's you know, it's even though it's kind of closer to the more population and some bigger towns it's still you know, just rural and wild and, and just you know, just feels really remote.

26:01

What makes it hard to access it cuts through a really steep

26:05

canyon, okay, above the valley floor and and there are trails along either side, there's a railroad track on one side and there's there's an old railroad track with it's now a hiking trail on the other but it's like it's a good couple 100 feet down to get to the river from those hiking trail. Yeah, so and there aren't many trails, you know, going from the hiking trail to the river so you have to be pretty adventurous to access that area on foot. You can access it by boat, you know, canoe kayak, or we use we use rafts mostly.

26:37

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27:51

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29:09

you know, so on the upper river, when they're not releasing, it's a you know, you can't float it because there's just not enough water, it's too rocky, you'd just be dragging over everything. So it's great to wave them on the lower river, you can float it most of the time, you know, at its extreme lowest, it's not that much fun to float because you're dragging a lot. But but that can get you know, you can wave that you know until it gets to a certain level and then it's you know, it's harder to fish from the bank and, and when they're releasing on the higher River, their spots. You can absolutely fish it on foot. But you're limited, you know so. So you can do both, which is kind of fun.

29:47

Cool. So back to the dams for a minute. If they're releasing out of one dam, could I just run up 10 miles up to up the river and hit the next section below another dam? Yeah,

29:59

absolutely. Uh, yeah, they're not always doing it at the same time. And it does become kind of like a Deerfield river art form, to be able to kind of figure out those dams, you know, it took me a lot of years to kind of figure it out. And even on the upper river, you can kind of, a lot of times they'll only release for for three hours. And so if they're released at the top dam, fight them that, you know, say 11 o'clock, you can you know, Bogey downstream six miles, and you can get a couple hours efficient and before that water reaches down there, right, okay. And then you can keep going downstream. And then you know, soon enough, they cut off up there, you can go back up river again. So you can kind of work your way around that bubble if you need to. So you can kind of move around. Okay. Yeah, Alternatively, you could go below another one of the dams. And that's kind of, you know, the dams are both sort of the Bane and the boon and the river, right. I mean, it's that they're, you know, they disrupt everything, and, you know, they can be unpredictable, but at the same time, you know, there's almost always a spot to fish on the river. You know, there's, there's one day and you can go that you can, you know, and I'm talking with fish, when I say this, there's almost always a spot you can go on Wade, because you know, this dam may be diverting here, they just, and it's above and beyond the dam, so just move water around to there's a bunch of canals, and they move them to transfer stations. And so a lot of the time they remove a lot of that water. So even if the river is really high, there's still not too much water behind one dam. So you can go fish that and yeah, so it's, it becomes you know, yeah, it's, it's pretty neat. But it can be hard to figure out. So that's why we're here, I guess. Yeah,

31:32

I was gonna say that's why there's a fly shop called the Deerfield flight. Yeah,

31:36

exactly. Yeah. So and we're happy to help people with that.

31:40

Yeah. Talk to me about public private land. I'm on my little trot rods app here. And it looks like kind of a hodgepodge of private and public water throughout. What's it like?

31:50

Yeah, no, I mean, there's, there's really good access, really good public access, particularly on the upper river. So if you're, you know, above that, you know, from all the way you know, from, really from above Shelburne falls up to, you know, to the Vermont line, there's great access, I think the power company, or the railroad company owns most of that land out there. And, you know, and basically, you know, anywhere, there's a pull out, you can, you can access the river. And once you're in the river, you can kind of go wherever you want. There's a little bit of private land up there, but I'm not sure how many of those private landowners actually own across the street. And, you know, and on the river, there's no houses directly on the river up there. Okay, that I know of, yeah.

32:34

What are the stream access laws,

32:37

they're changing. So it's, you know, it used to be my understanding that, you know, if you, if you walk into the river and spa, where you're allowed to access it, as long as he keeps your feet wet, and you stay below that high watermark, you should be good. But my understanding is that there have been some, you know, have been some cases recently, where, you know, landowners have successfully argued that they own you know, a certain amount of land under the river.

33:03

That's a big change.

33:04

Yeah, it is, it is, and I don't know, I don't, I haven't digged into it enough to really know, you know, what's going on with it. That's, you know, some of that is just kind of hearsay, but I've talked to some people who do know a little bit about it. And it's something that, you know, I'm keeping my eye on, it's not an issue on the Deerfield because, you know, because I think a lot of that land is owned by, you know, by, like I said, by the power company, or by the railroad. And they're, you know, they don't seem to care about the public access, or, I mean, they allow it so, and I think that's part of you know, part of their deal probably to have that land give that access. So, um, but once you get into Charlemont there is you know, there are some houses there and access can get a little spotty through there, but then, you know, kind of major road below the town follows it, and, you know, any pull off you can access it there. So, it's very accessible and it's upper reaches through the town of Shelburne falls, you know, access can get a little tricky, but there is you know, there is there ample spots to get in and you know, and nobody seems to even if there is this you know, this argument elsewhere that you know, you can own under the river I haven't heard of that being an issue in the in the area around Shelburne falls. And then as you get lower in the river, you know, like I said, there's that big sort of Canyon a area on the lower river that is accessible, it's just hard to access but it's legally accessible. And then once you get into the farmland once you get into the valley floor there's a lot of farmland so access gets pretty tricky there. So you know, but that's you know, I like to float down lower stretch when I can anyway it's bigger water down there and trickier it away.

34:44

And I would read the same really backwards me that the brown trout are in the upper and the rainbows are in the lower is that right?

34:51

Yeah, I mean, yeah, for the wild fish. Yeah, I wouldn't say the lower though for the rainbows, but the like the upper river I think of as like kind of above the Charlemont and above, and they're definitely you know, that's where predominantly where the wild browns are. And then from kinda, you know, Charlo Oman and the Shelburne Falls area is where the rainbows are. There aren't a lot of wild fish in the lower stretch, which is you know, below. Below Shelburne falls, there's not a lot of wild fish that I'm aware of. There may be some that come in from the Connecticut and I'm sure there's some but not the populations that we have in, you know, the upper half of the river and two thirds of the river.

35:31

Okay, gotcha. All right. So I also read that this river is really well known for dry fly fishing, I was hoping you could kind of walk us through the seasons, the hatch chart, you know, kind of your top confidence fly patterns, that sort of thing.

35:44

Yeah, it's the dry fly fishing can be excellent. It can be maddening. It can be, which is, you know, maybe appropriate. You know, I wouldn't say we have the prolific hatches that, you know, some of the other, you know, better known streams might have, you know, like, say the Farmington or the West Branch or the Delaware, we have nowhere near those types of hatches. But we have some good ones, you know, and fish are generally eager to take a dry slot. I know a guy who comes into the shop regularly and he fishes that upper river and you know, he only fishes dry flies, and he does very well, and even when they're not rising, so, so we do have opportunistic fish. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the one of the biggest drawbacks to the dams is I think it does, you know, the spiking dams and with with the peaking water really says is that I think it does have an adverse effect on the bug bug population makes sense. So our hatches can be you know, they can be frustrating because you know, one night there can be a great hatch up there and the next night, same conditions and nothing you know, and so, but when it's good, it can be great. And like I said they can be super opportunistic. So you know, like right now we're in terrestrial season and you know, and that's you know, that's great. I mean, they're definitely eager to come up and hit a chubby Chernobyl or you know a big PMS or something like that sir yeah or and patterns and, you know, through the winter you know, I guess we might as well start there as far as the hatches go, you know, so not a ton of hatches right now it's more Terrestrials gotcha but like I said you can still prospect with you know, like a size 12 Adams or size 14 Adams and you know, and you'll pick up fish here and there Yeah, but as the summer wears on, you know, we may see we may see some flying and hatches which can be pretty cool. Those seem to me to be fairly random. I've had a couple and they're just epic it's you know, the water can just be just covered with these flying ants and their fish rising everywhere. Yeah. And it can be bending to if you don't have the right size and color realized but you know, what, if you do it can be great you know, and you can and they find it among all those naturals but you know once the summer you know, once we get into September and things start to you know, we get some cooler nights we should see some you know, start to see more cat attaching again and then we'll see we actually get a late hatch of Cahills kind of usually in the end of September and October which Yeah, which can be a great hatch and the fish can be really awesome, you know, like sizes 14 and 16. And you know, concurrent with that, you know what we'll start seeing more and more blooming dollars in the fall you know, anywhere from you know, probably 20 to 20 fours maybe even a teens and like I said cactus, there's again another hatch of a nice to Nichia you know, which which we'll see as well. And then we do get some October caddis so they you know, those bigger orange ones we'll see those in the fall as well as the fall wires on you know, as we get in November it's you know, as far as hatches go, it's primarily just going to be those blowing dollars after that, but we can you know, that you can you can find you can definitely find some good dry fly action in November if you're in the right place at the right time. And

38:54

What size are you blowing out?

38:56

Oh, they're pretty small at that point. You know, probably 20 is 20 twos.

39:00

No, okay. real small. Yeah, gotcha. All right. And then wintertime,

39:04

winter I don't see much I'm sure there are some days when the fish will get on the midges but I rarely come across that it's more of a nymphing game in the wintertime okay, but it can you know can fish great you know a lot of that kind of typical winter stuff works you know kind of squirmy where enemies egg patterns, but also you know, bigger stone fly Nam is a really good year round on the Deerfield Big Stone finance work well, okay. Yeah. And you know, and then you know, you're kind of typical may fly names, you know, the pheasant tails and princes, hairs ears those kinds of things. Yeah, come work year round as well. Yeah, but once they you know, as the winter rolls and rolls out in into the spring or hatches, you know, we don't see you'll see sporadic action in April but generally not it's often pretty high and pretty cold. And even if you see bugs hatch, and it's you know, don't often see too many fish coming up to him. But by the time maggots here, and we do get a Hendriksen hatch that can be very good. And that's usually that's usually when they start to turn on to the surface feeding. Somewhere in that, yeah, somewhere in that Hendriksen hatch in May, late April, May, the Hendriksen hatches, I mean, I love and I chase it up and down the river. But it can be maddening because you can just see bugs popping everywhere, but the fish just haven't keyed in on the surface yet. Yeah, what's

40:29

up with that?

40:30

I've seen I don't know, it's just cold, you know, and that they haven't been looking up there for a while. And then but eventually they do find out you know, and so, but it's like, he got out there every day. Because, because it's fun when you get on that first day when they're really challenged on the surface when they're looking up. Yeah, exactly. But you may get a couple of really nice hatches that, you know, that just go on the last step and, and that can be kind of crazy. But But yeah, but once that, you know, once that starts, you know, then the dry fly action can be is typically really good for the next, you know, cop, you know, six weeks to, you know, to two months really, we got Cahills we'll get sulfur hatch can be really, really good. But also in March browns, and canister always makes them so there's always a chance of you know, someone on a decent Catus

41:21

Okay, so I was expecting you to really talk a lot about niche fishing. You seen this is a bunch of tailwaters There's a fish like a tail water or maybe not,

41:30

it doesn't know, I feel like I feel like it fish is much more like a freestyle. Okay, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, the Swift river that I mentioned earlier, that is definitely a merge river, you know, and you're looking at, you know, 20, twos to 30s, you know, size 22 to size 30. And that's definitely you know, your more traditional ISO 31 Water

41:52

size 30 I have not fished with a size 30

41:54

I do not I mean, I have I mean, I don't think I can tie it down anymore.

42:00

I got a picture of a size 36 Fly on my Instagram account, and you could probably put 40 of them on a quarter or make on a dime. Probably

42:09

not. Yeah, no, I can't even find them under my leader. But you know, but the guys that Fisher regularly and do well. Sometimes I say that's what you got to do. Not always but sometimes.

42:22

So what's a good day on the Deerfield river say decent anglers middle of summer, you know, what's a good day?

42:28

Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, six, eight fish is a solid day. I mean, you could certainly have better days. I don't know many people who catch you know, much more than a dozen fish a day. I mean, but I'm sure there are. But yeah, six eight is is I would say is a really good day.

42:45

Yeah. And how does that kind of rank completely? If I'm on the Farmington or the Swift course I'm dealing with some big crowds over there. So you got to take Yeah, more than just numbers. But how does that sort of compare to some other

42:56

Yeah, I'm in a better anglers on the Swift you know, they can have 20 Fish days. Because when you crack the code on the Swift, it seems like every fish is eating that same flies sometimes. So you can really, you know, you can really do well, and they're just more efficient there too, is the other thing. They're just like I mentioned before, there's not a, you know, it's not the highest density population of fish on the Deerfield. But the top end is really good. And that's what I think sets it apart and makes it you know, such a great river to fish. The quality of fish is really great.

43:29

And talk to me about your to you chapter out there because they've done a lot of conservation work here, haven't they?

43:35

Yeah, they've been, they've been absolutely amazing. The past several years, they've done a lot of work to prove, you know, because I think 10 years, you know, probably 10 years ago, I think, you know, the people were fishing the river a lot, you know, including there's a lot of guys you know, and a lot of those team members and stuff are saying you know, we're seeing a lot of wild brown trout in there. And you know, we're telling that to the to the Department of Fish and Wildlife now. Now they're no wild fish in the Deerfield. They're no wild fish in the deer field. So basically, to you went out and said about the proof and document, you know, they hired a scientist, they did a red study where they marked all the brown trout reds on the upper river, and you know, counted eggs and and basically just documented, you know, with established scientists that there are wild fish here, they're actively breeding, you know, and so, so fish from outside, okay, yeah, you're right. And they started sending biologists down. And since that time, you know, between TCU and the Department of Fish and Wildlife, mass wildlife, you know, we've done some pretty extensive studies on the brown trout up there and found that you know, 80% of the browns on the upper river are wild stream, bro wash over good. Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, I always thought it was pretty good. I actually had one summer I got to the biologists one of the state biologists is a friend of mine, and he was doing you know, Are the Alexa shocking in the river and I got to row in because we have a raft set up with the electric shocker and everything and I got to roam on that. And that was a wild experience, you know, because because we're just you know, we're chopping up all these fish and you know, I knew there were a lot of wild browns in there, but it was it was amazing demand just because we're, you know, eight out of every 10 fish, you know, we're wild fish.

45:22

How do you know that? Brian? How do they how do they know that? There's

45:26

a part there? Yeah, about five years ago, DFW started clipping the adipose fence on the stock brown trout. Gotcha. So, you know, so when I did this, you know, it had been two or three years of that so, so potentially some of the bigger fish we shocked were holdovers but by now, you know, pretty much all the fish in there within adipose are gonna be wild fish. So but yeah, it was it was amazing to me, because we'd go through like a nice run. And you know, shock up just big, big brown trout. And yeah, and then eight out of 10 of them were you know, and we're counting them yeah, that's why that's why I'm that's why I'm that's why I'm okay, yeah, no, I had no idea. And then the other thing that really surprised me is that we were also you know, pulling up rounds and probably like four or five to one, you know, ratio to rainbows, you know, so there's just, you know, they're more browns and rainbows out there stock rainbows. You know, which is funny because your cat trade is usually the opposite. Like five or six rainbows everyone brown trout you get. But I think that's just goes to fish, you know, because you're catching mostly sock fish, you know, but you do you know, you will get into a lot of love. Those wild grounds are just a lot smarter.

46:38

Okay, now I got a I got a question. Brian, did you go back to those holes where you're chopping up those big brown?

46:48

Tactical knowledge for you. Okay, did you get one? Yeah, it worked out?

46:52

You know, I didn't because it was mid summer, they were really tough. They're hard fish. You know, I mean, just because you know where they are doesn't mean you're gonna catch them. So, but you know, subsequently, I've probably gotten a few fish. But you know, made me fish some different spots, you know, because they weren't always spots you thought they were going to be and it really opened my eyes. i Oh, wow. You know, they could, there could be a really big fish right there. And, you know, just kind of made me approach the river a little differently.

47:18

I remember, I was used to fish up in Michigan a lot up on their Savile. I remember right in front of gates, his lodge story was that the DNR came through there, and they shocked up like a 25 inch brown trout like right in front of the lodge where like, it just gets pounded by anglers, you know, and they're right, there is a gigantic brown trout, you know? Alright, so what's your what's your pro tip on? And how do you get these big Browns into Deerfield? What are you doing when you do get them?

47:45

You know, they're tough. I mean, they definitely, you know, you generally, you know, sometimes you're just gonna look into him for sure, you know, just fishing the way you are. But, you know, to be honest with you, I like to fish, I think I do my best fishing kind of before they stock in the spring,

48:01

which is when

48:03

generally kind of April, you know, it totally depends on the conditions, sometimes as early as late March, but that's pretty rare. You know, usually, it's kinda, you know, April, you know, somewhere in April, early April to mid April. Gotcha. So I really like to, you know, to put my time in then, and then they, you know, they don't stock after about late Memorial Day, but they'll stock again in the fall, and like October, late September, and so sort of that period, right before them too, I find can be really good. Just because I'm, you know, less competition from those, the rainbows that they stock are just ravenous, you know, they just kind of eat everything that goes by, so I feel like, you know, you have a better shot at some of those wild fish, that those periods but that's, you know, that's not say can't catch them and other times, and you know, and obviously, it's just, you know, kind of fishing, you know, you know, they're gonna be they're going to be on the banks, you know, they're not going to be in the middle of the river, usually the rainbows will be out in the middle of the river, you may have to use different kinds of flies, like what smaller or what I mean, you might have to go smaller, but you know, but you can, you know, hoppers along the bank, okay. It varies, you know, but it's just, you know, kind of putting your time in and sort of trying to figure out the places where they are, because because they kind of, you know, they're not gonna be in the same holes as all the stock rainbows. You know, they'll push off to the sides and so you have a ton of fish different places. And then the other thing is, is deficient night.

49:29

I was gonna say, I've seen some pictures of some big mouse patterns hanging out of big fish at night on the Deerfield. Yeah,

49:34

they just, you know, those those browns, especially, especially in low water years, but and, you know, just in the summer, they become nocturnal feeders. They just feed so much more at night. Yeah. And, you know, and the big fish really do target kind of big meals and, you know, there's some big fish in there. They're probably like a mouse every other day. And that's, you know, they're not they're not hitting every month that goes by Yeah, exactly. So

49:58

maybe one of those stuff rainbows.

50:01

Yeah, exactly. That's kind of the stealth tip. I mean, that's if you want to have your best chance of getting the big ground. It's you know, hitting it at night in the summer is definitely is going to is going to up your chances exponentially for sure. Like

50:14

how selective would you say the fish are like, Are you down to five 6x? Or what do you what are you using there?

50:21

Yeah, not, I wouldn't say super selective. As far as that go leader shy like that. I mean, I rarely go below 5x. You know, if I'm fishing, I was really small while I was in the fall, and may go down to 6x. If they're getting, you know, the water is really low. And I'm fishing a sulphur hatch or say I might go down to 6x. But generally 5x I'll get it done. I will lengthen my later though. And I will fish like a 12 to 15 foot later. Oh, you will. Okay. Yeah. And then the other thing too, is the way you approach the fish, I think makes a huge difference. Like because I was at this one pool once and there's just a bunch of fish rising. It's a pretty well known spot, and you know, so they get some pressure, and I'm casting upstream don't I'm getting some really nice dress, I know what they're eating because I can see it, you know, they're picking, Hendrickson 's off of there, and I'm getting nice trip after a nice trip, and they just won't even touch it. You know, they won't even look at it. They won't even come up and look at it. And so I was like, Huh, what, you know, as you say, oh, what's going on? So I ended up like going, oh, you know, why don't I try that since I walked upstream? You know, I walked it's kind of a way and upstream. And just so I could throw it downstream approach Adam in the downstream cast, you know, with a nice man in there and boom, first first pass, you know, okay. Yeah, so they can be fussy? Yeah, absolutely. They were watching the leader. Yeah, exactly. I think the first thing they saw was that, you know, you know, as the fly on that one, you want to you're passing it to him downstream. So,

51:50

yeah, right. Right. I was worried about that downstream. You know, because downstream, Brian, you know, you're gonna pull the fly out of its mouth half the time when you're

51:58

Yeah, a lot of times. Absolutely. Yeah.

52:00

So what are we going to do about that? I mean,

52:02

I just, I just, I meant it really aggressively ahead of time. So that there's a lot of, you know, any kind of have to do that to get, you know, depending on exactly what the currents are doing. But usually you have to put a fair amount of men's in it, just so you're gonna get that drift, you know, by the time it goes by the fish. So, so usually, there's some slack in there for me, you know, but I've definitely had those times where it's like, you know, there, there wasn't much slack or, or there wasn't as much slack as I thought, and I went to set it and you know, I just pulled her out of there, but, but, ya know, you just, I think you just man and you know, and make sure there's some slack in there.

52:34

Are you doing like Hopper droppers a lot of the time? Are you just if you're dry fly fishing is just straight dries or what? What's your setup there?

52:42

Um, yeah, it depends, you know, this time your hopper dropper all day for sure. Okay. And a lot of the times, you know, if I if I'm not seeing like, an hatch with like, a lot of active feeding fish, you know, I'll definitely go Hopper dropper, and that works really well. In the spring, I'll use you know, like a big humpy or something. And, you know, dropping them off of that. And then once, once you get into July, I tend to switch out that homepage for like, you know, a small, chubby Chernobyl on as the summer gets later, I'll do bigger, bigger ones. Yeah, you know, for the hoppers and stuff. But if there's a hatch going on, you know, I've definitely, you know, I'm just going with that one slot. Okay. And, you know, target makes sense. Yeah. So, it will matter. I mean, you know, he may have to switch you know, from the done to the spinner. And sometimes that happens, you know, right at dark too. So, you know, they will get fussy that way for sure. Okay, I've had days where you know, on the sulfur hatch, where I'm fishing my done and, you know, fishing something like a sparkle done and doing real well and all sudden it's starting to get darker and they're still rising everywhere, but they're normally done. And, you know, sadly, I do admit, it happened to me like a couple times before I really figured it out. But I'd like you know, finally at the end, I'd like put on my headlamp I'm locked down in the rivers just carpeted in spinners. You know, switch to Steiners. You know,

54:02

sounds like you get some good hatches, then if that's happening. Yeah,

54:05

yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

54:07

Okay. All right. Well, let's switch gears because I wanna hear a little bit about you and your story. So here you are in Deerfield, Massachusetts, you have kind of quite the story about how you ended up buying a flower shop.

54:18

Yeah, so I was actually came to this area originally, um, my daughter who is 16 now and she just took her to get her learner's permit in the car, man.

54:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's terrifying. What the neighbors know. Yeah, exactly.

54:33

Get off the roads. But I moved here when she was two weeks old to to enter a Pete PhD program at UMass in history. And that was great. I enjoyed that. As you know, and as I got progressed through that program, I was kind of more and more on my own time and I, you know, I was teaching, but it kind of the rest of the time I was scheduled, you know, it was on my own schedule. I'm just writing my dissertation and you know, in As a history PhD, you're just reading all the time. But you can do it whenever you want. And so I ended up spending a lot of that time fishing, you know, when I'm reading and writing and, you know, and all that, and, and it just kind of dragged on. And you know, for some other reasons, it was becoming clear to me that, you know, to get this PhD and to, you know, get a teaching position, I'm probably not gonna be able to stay here, and I really liked it here. And I was enjoying raising my daughter in this area. And you know, the fishing was really good. And so I started looking for other things. I started working very part time at that the flower shop that I currently on, the former owner, a guy named Mike, Donna's are really good guy, good friend of mine, but he used to guide, you know, full time out of the shop. And he had, he had one guy helping them who's still at the shop, actually. And, but when when those two guys couldn't cover the shopee bring me in, so it was very occasionally. Okay, but that sort of experience was like, Okay, I like this, you know, I like being in the shop. I like talking to people about fishing, you know, so I started looking around as I as I realized that this PAC thing might not actually come to the conclusion I expected it would. So I was looking around for other things to do. And, you know, and so I just had one day, I was just like, No, Mike, hey, if you ever want to partner, you know, you want to sell this, please let me know. Like, okay. And you know, a couple of months later, he's like, really serious when he said,

56:26

he's been thinking about it for a couple of months. I do want to sell this thing.

56:31

Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, man. Yeah. And so, you know, so. So we came to, you know, we talked about it for a few weeks. And this was the winter of 2020. This is probably February of 2020. When we really were like, okay, you know, we're gonna make this happen. And then COVID hit. And so,

56:49

did you buy the shop? And then COVID hit?

56:51

No, COVID hit? Well, I had agreed to buy the shop. And then COVID. So I kind of, you know, I mean, and Mike was very understanding, you know, and he's just like, we just stopped talking about it for a little while. Because, you know, because, you know, just like, well, what's gonna happen, you know, we knew what was gonna happen, then, you know, it's just this weird time, you know, and I was just, you know, that early March, and, you know, it's just like, you're just like, you know, what's gonna happen, you know, I was like, Is this just absolute folly to buy this place? You know, when, when the world is about to fall apart? You know, the economy is about to fall apart.

57:27

I was talking to guys, I remember because that's when I started my podcast. There were guys like, selling their boats, like, Oh, this is done. I've never got again, it turned out to be a year for most, most fly shops.

57:39

Exactly. And, you know, and I didn't know that. But you know, but finally, Mike was, like, was like, you know, I think we're getting into April and into May. And he's like, you know, like, Brian, listen, you got to, you know, you got to make a decision, you know, because, because if you're not gonna buy it, I gotta start ordering and getting ready for the summer and all this other stuff. And, you know, it's just like, I don't know, I mean, I had a sense, you know, that, like, the last, the last recession in this area, that outdoor stuff did, okay. You know, and so I was like, okay, you know, I'm just gonna try it, you know, and see what happens and, you know, kind of swallowed all my fears and said, okay, and, you know, and like you said, as it turned out, it was a huge boom. You know, people were, you know, there was nothing else they could do that summer, you know, you couldn't go out to eat, you couldn't go to the movies. You just even just driving around, he saw more people walking around than he ever do, you know, because people just had to get out of the house. So it was great, you know, and, and it's been good since then. You know, it's been really good since then. So that's a great story. Yeah, a little scary at first, but it turned out real good. Yeah. Turned out really good.

58:44

What was the hardest part about buying a flash? I mean, did you have a lot of retail experience? You had a little bit I know, but what was hard about that? I mentioned a lot of things.

58:53

You don't have much to be honest with you. I mean, I don't, you know, I did a little retail, but it was, you know, as an hourly employee that didn't really care that well, you know, but I just, you know, when I got into the shop, you know, I just I, you know, since I'd worked for Mike a little bit, I kind of knew some of the clientele and I just, I had ideas about, you know, the things that I wanted to do that I might do slightly different, and, you know, areas where I could sort of build upon what Mike had already done. And so, you know, it's, I kind of took it incrementally like that, and Mike stayed on to as a guide for the shop, which was like a godsend, you know, so, you know, every time I was like, Wait, how's this computer work? Or where do I order this from, you know, he was there and, you know, to give me the answer, and, you know, to help me through all that stuff, so, and I also kept on the employee who had been there for a long time. And so, you know, so I had a lot of help. So that was obviously very helpful. Yeah. And, but it was just, you know, it was just kind of took me a little while to figure out you know, the business end of it, but you know, but the, I think the biggest thing was just was what I loved from the gecko is just talking to people, talking to the customers and listening to him.

59:59

Yeah. Just the basic stuff, you know, just being good with people.

1:00:03

Yeah. And just saying, oh, and they're like, well, here's what I'd like. And you know, he can't act on everything, but you know, but they're not people come up, he's like, Well, it's time we get some of that. We get some of that, or don't do this, don't do that, you know, but what I did find, you know, which was interesting, and, and not hard or anything, but, you know, but it was a responsibility to, you know, because the shop and, you know, become a hub of the community, on the fly fishing community. And, you know, and so I felt like, a little bit of, you know, not a little bit but a responsibility to continue that and to grow that as much as I screwed up, right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, because, you know, like, I say, Mike, you built a nice shop, you know, out of nothing. And there's a great community anglers out here. And I wanted to make sure, you know, obviously, that I kept them, I gave them, you know, what they wanted, and a reason to keep coming back. So

1:00:52

good for you? How about, if you could do it all over again? Meaning, like, your career, would you do anything differently?

1:01:00

I don't think so. I mean, I think a lot about what if I got this one job here that I didn't get, or I took this job instead of that job? Or? No, it's been fun to do a bunch of different stuff, you know, and I've had a lot of really cool, really cool experiences. And, and, and I think, in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, I've always fishing has been a big part of my life, for the last 30 years, you know, something that's really driven me, it's only recently that that's become, you know, become a vocation, instead of just an avocation. But, um, but I think it's good that I waited, you know, and because when I was younger, I'm not sure. I would have, you know, I could have gotten burned out, I could have gotten this cut it, you know, it was nice that, you know, it was at the right point in my life for this to, you know, to happen for me. So, yeah, it was really cool.

1:01:50

You know, looking way back, what got you interested in fishing in general,

1:01:55

you know, especially as a kid and into college, never a lot though. I mean, I enjoyed it. It was fun. It was something I do, you know, if I did it three or four times a year, that was a lot. But it was just something, you know, my family, you know, they weren't, there weren't many anglers in the, in the immediate family, or even the extended family. I think my grandparents on my dad's side, did a little bit of fishing, but it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't something I did with them. But, but it just, you know, I enjoyed it. And then, after college, you know, I was just like, Hmm, I really like to try fly fishing. I think I might like, it

1:02:31

just dawned on you just decided to do

1:02:33

it did yeah, I was thinking earlier today is like, was there something it was like, No, I think I just like one day, I kind of want to try that. And actually, my grandmother did give me a fly rod for Christmas. Okay. And kind of after that, you know, it was like, it just took hold. I think I've probably fished, you know, a minimum of 50 days a year since that day. It's just one of those things that, you know, it just for some reason, yeah. And learning the whole point, you know, it's just what's so great about fly fishing to me, is that it's constantly learning, you know, and it's just, you know, whether it's the cast, whether it's about the fish, the technique, all these things, it's just, there's always so much to learn. And, you know, so much to try to master you know, and it's just, as soon as your task gets good, you realize how much better it could get. And all the things you're doing wrong. And you know, as soon as you start to catch a few fish, you realize how many fish are not catching, and you know, and what you could do differently, and all these things you don't know about fly fishing. And then there are all these other species, you know, so it's, yeah, it's just it's like an endless, endless journey. And all these places you can go, which is what's so great about your podcast, you know, because I do, I mean, one of the things that really draws me to fly fishing noise, as is like, is to travel places and explore and, you know, to reason to be there with a fly rod, you know, and it's just, and you know, and it's just listening to some of your podcasts and a lot of places I never thought of, and I was like, Oh, wow, that sounds really cool. I got to put that one on the list. You know,

1:04:04

wish I could go to all these five and show 97 I think I've probably fished 30 or 40 of these places, but I wish 96 of them, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, the actual mouse was it you walked away from a PhD program? Was that hard to do?

1:04:22

No, because it didn't run its course. You know, by the time, you know, it had been long enough that I'd sort of, you know, because they kept, you know, I was able to kind of string it along for a while, you know, pick up a teaching gig here and there and just kind of keep that dissertation limping along for a long time. And you know, and after a while, it was just like, alright, it's, you know, this thing. Yeah. Oh, we fall in here.

1:04:46

So you finally got your priorities straight. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Fishing first, right. But now let's run a fly shop making a living in the fishing business. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it's

1:04:57

been great, man. It's been really great.

1:04:59

What was the One thing you want people to walk away with about the Deerfield river from this podcast,

1:05:06

I would say it's a beautiful, scenic, you know remote river where you can get, you know, you can get a stretch of river yourself, even in the busy season, if you're willing to walk a little bit. And, you know, there's always a chance of getting a 27 inch brown trout. And I just don't know, too many places where you can do that in the northeast, you know, there's combo, but I don't know, and I fished that a lot of a lot of these places in the Northeast, and it's just, you know, it's the lack of crowds, you know, those other rivers where you can get them tend to be a lot more crowded. Yeah. And yeah, so I mean, it's just if you want some, some river yourself and your friends and, and like I said, are willing to walk a little bit, and you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna catch a ton of huge fish necessarily, but they're there, and the possibilities there. And that's, you know, pretty cool. That's pretty cool on it. And it's a river that's getting, you know, that I think, is getting healthier, because we were talking about to you earlier, and one of the boons of their, of their research and their advocacy is they've gotten the, they've gotten the damn company to, to the to agree to up the minimum flows in the time. Yeah, and what that's going to do is what we discovered, when we're checking out all these reds is that the fish had come up, you know, when the water was high, they build their as you know, they, you know, they're fertilized in us and the eggs, and then, and then the water would go down, and all those reds would get the water and then freeze and they'd become not viable. So despite that, you know, we have this really healthy population of brown trout. Yeah, if we put more water over those reds, you know, it could be a better hominid. Yeah, so

1:06:48

best is yet to come.

1:06:50

So the future's bright. Yeah, and another thing that we hadn't touched on too too much is that you know, we're finding more and more wild rainbows every year it seems like you know, just anecdotally as well as he was doing some studies to really document a mass Fish and Wildlife has documented it. You know, there's there's a healthy population a while Rambo's up and up there now too. So it's yeah, it's it's nice to be able to say that this is a river that really seems like it's best days are ahead of it.

1:07:16

There you go. What's your favorite place to eat for the hungry thirsty angle at the end of the day on the river?

1:07:25

I was you know, I was preparing for this. There's a new Mexican place called Posada. I think it's Posada grill, and Shelburne falls. That tree. Okay. Yeah.

1:07:39

Shadow grill. Yeah. Okay. There you go, folks. People do comment on these little tips we give them about where to eat. So I think we're sending people some people some business here. So anyway,

1:07:49

awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Just I just wish they'd stay open later, because it's hard for me to get off the river before dark and sometimes they're closed.

1:07:58

All right, there you go. Well, Brian, man, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for doing this.

1:08:02

Yeah. Thank you so much, Dave. It's been a pleasure, man.

1:08:05

Yeah, yeah. So how can people get in touch with you maybe book a trip?

1:08:09

You can find us on the web. www dot Deerfield fly shop.com Instagram or Facebook? Deerfield slash shop? And yeah, our phone numbers will be there and my email if you have any questions about the dance or whatever, yeah.

1:08:25

All right. There you go, folks. Check them out. Brian, thanks a lot. Hey, wish extraordinary success and all your adventures to follow and folks thank you so much for listening. We'll be sure to post Brian's contact information on the destination angler show notes and pictures of his top flight picks in Facebook and Instagram pages. You can email me or DM me with comments and suggestions shaigh50@gmail.com If you'd like to show please share it with a buddy. As always Our music is by our brothers fountain.

 hope you enjoyed the show and we'll see you again soon.

Tight Lines everybody